Question:

Even if botulism is nothing to worry about in the context of brewing, it should be remembered that other organisms may cause problems. While I have no doubt that the brewing process would kill most all microorganisms, this may not be the case with the toxins they produce. There are toxins produced by certain molds that can cause serious health problems over the long term.  Some of these molds are known to grow on improperly stored grain.  Given that people have apparently suffered kidney failure from consuming tainted grain which would presumably have been cooked in some way, these toxins could also survive the brewing process, even if the molds themselves are destroyed. This info on tainted grain comes from a PBS special about a mysterious epidemic of kidney failures in Romania which though originally attributed to a ‘genetic disorder’, was later traced to toxins (endotoxins?) in improperly stored grain. Of course, this is not something the average brewer needs to worry about. I was just trying to make the point that just because the brewing process is likely to kill most all harmful microorganisms, this does not necessarily imply that a finished beer will, by definition, be free of all the harmful effects of spoiled ingredients.   Of course, this never stopped me from scooping mold off the surface of stored extract syrup and brewing with it. Cheers, Rick C.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Unfortunately, malt extract would be the perfect place to   grow botulism bacteria.  However, the toxin it produces would be   destroyed by the heat during the boil.  Anyone want to chance it? I don’t know…  I took a microbiology course way back, and I seem to   remember botulism being particularly hardy and resistant to   boiling… (But.. a little education is a dangerous thing, or something like   that) -C this point was made in the previous discussion as well. however … it is my understanding that botulism does not survive in pure or highly concentrated sugars. the question is, are malt extracts sufficiently high in sugar to prevent botulism? i would guess so, but if i had a bulging can i would reguess. unless i am further edified. Ulick?

All I can add to this, not knowing a lot about botulism, is that brewing is a way of guaranteeing sterility with regards to bacteria that affect people.  That is one of the reasons why brewing became popular in the middle ages, and is why Corona is a nice cheap substance to use in Mexico for brushing your teeth.  I can’t say if botulism bacteria could live in malt extract, but boiling followed by fermentation would make everyuthing sterile.  I’m not saying that brewing with a bulging can would give perfect results, but noone is going to get food poisening. I presume, merely a guess though, that few microorganisms could survive is the dehydrating atmosphere of a concentrated sugar syrup, although I have seen molds on tops of Malt extract stored open to the atmosphere. In this case I would scrape it off and brew with it.  I have noticed than when open jams go moldy they smell quite alcoholic, but botulism??? I thought that was a risk of death I took when I open a can of Salmon??? + ‘There was a  master come unto the earth, + Ulick Stafford, PP-ASEL       + +    born in the holy land of Indiana,      + Dept of Chemical Engineering, + + in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne’.+ Notre Dame, IN 46556          +

Response:

it is my understanding that botulism does not survive in pure or highly concentrated sugars. the question is, are malt extracts sufficiently high in sugar to prevent botulism? i would guess so, but if i had a bulging can i would reguess. unless i am further edified.

this is from e-mail i received Boiling water temperature is not sufficient to kill botulism. It is, however, sufficient to destroy the toxin, hence the traditional warning to boil all non-acid canned goods prior to even tasting them. Fruits and most tomatoes are canned in a boiling water bath, which is sufficient to kill the spoilage organisms that can survive the low pH. Botulism can take the heat, but not the acid. Non-acid vegetables and meats have to be canned in a pressure cooker to ensure killing the botulism beasties. A bulging can of this stuff is a death trap. Even normal looking cans can be dangerous. My father had an incident in his medical practice years ago where a whole family was nearly killed by home canned green beans served cold at a picnic. More recently, there was a spate of botulism due to commercially canned mushrooms. It seems the large restaurant cans didn’t get hot enough in the center. Jams and jellies are often not even processed in a hot water bath. About all that can live in them is mold, so they are often just put in sanitized jars and sealed with wax. Malt extract dilutes down to something fairly acid, so I think it is easily acid enough to inhibit botulism. It is also very sugary, more so than pancake syrup, which seems ungiven to spoilage at room temperature. If stuff like this could support botulism, I should think honey would be deadly. At any rate, if your malt extract is spoiled, it is probably mold, but you are going to boil the bejesus out of it anyway, so it shouldn’t kill you in any case. Of course, if it is really off, you might not be able to keep it down long enough to tell and All I can add to this, not knowing a lot about botulism, is that brewing is a way of guaranteeing sterility with regards to bacteria that affect people.  That is one of the reasons why brewing became popular in the middle ages, and is why Corona is a nice cheap substance to use in Mexico for brushing your teeth.  I can’t say if botulism bacteria could live in malt extract, but boiling followed by fermentation would make everyuthing sterile.  I’m not saying that brewing with a bulging can would give perfect results, but noone is going to get food poisening. I presume, merely a guess though, that few microorganisms could survive is the dehydrating atmosphere of a concentrated sugar syrup, although I have seen molds on tops of Malt extract stored open to the atmosphere. In this case I would scrape it off and brew with it.  I have noticed than when open jams go moldy they smell quite alcoholic, but botulism??? I thought that was a risk of death I took when I open a can of Salmon???

which pretty well agrees with our speculations. let’s hope we’re right. rec.crafts.brewing consensus for this week: go ahead and use very old extract. it’s just fancy sugar. the only thing that might grow on it is mold and you can just scoop that off it. who started this anyway? mister rogers

Response:

Being new to wine/mead making, this talk about botulism is a bit scary. I believe it’s anaerobic, doesn’t grow in oxygen, but I’m wondering if the sulfite etc used to sterilize winemaking equipment kills it. Since no boiling goes on in winemaking, I’d really like to know what the risk is of contracting botulism. Or can it even live in an environment with alcohol?

Response:

        Unfortunately, malt extract would be the perfect place to grow botulism bacteria.  However, the toxin it produces would be destroyed by the heat during the boil.  Anyone want to chance it?                                                         Latre,                                                         "q"

Response:

   Unfortunately, malt extract would be the perfect place to grow botulism bacteria.  

I don’t think so on two counts–it is too acid, and strong sugar solutions are unfit media for most spoilage organisms, including the botulism bugs.  Jams and jellies are canned in a hot water bath, which will not protect against botulism.

Response:

   Unfortunately, malt extract would be the perfect place to grow botulism bacteria.  However, the toxin it produces would be destroyed by the heat during the boil.  Anyone want to chance it?                                                    Latre,                                                    "q"

hey, it’s your can, YOU use it. ;^) is it actually a good botulistic environment? the concentrated extract may be too dehydrating for any such creatures (speculation). did nobody archive our previous discussion? ANYBODY THERE? (really, someone with an applicable education participated) mister rogers

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Unfortunately, malt extract would be the perfect place to   grow botulism bacteria.  However, the toxin it produces would be   destroyed by the heat during the boil.  Anyone want to chance it? I don’t know…  I took a microbiology course way back, and I seem to   remember botulism being particularly hardy and resistant to   boiling… (But.. a little education is a dangerous thing, or something like   that) -C

this point was made in the previous discussion as well. however … it is my understanding that botulism does not survive in pure or highly concentrated sugars. the question is, are malt extracts sufficiently high in sugar to prevent botulism? i would guess so, but if i had a bulging can i would reguess. unless i am further edified. Ulick? Jack? John? mister rogers

Response:

Just as another data point, I thought I would mention that we (as new parents were told (by the hospital literature, I believe) NOT feed any honey to the infant until 1 year old, due to the risk of BOTULISM.  Presumably they’re more sensitve when young (kids); However this does indicate that botulism IS present in honey.  I’ll try to nail down the source of this allegation.    CBT

We ran across this as well.  As I recall, the danger was not so much that the baby would get botulism, but that there was some correlation with SIDS and honey consumption.  I’d keep the fermented stuff away from junior for the first 18 months. ….S — WESPAC Waffle BBS — 412 487 3637

Response:

Just as another data point, I thought I would mention that we (as new parents) were told (by the hospital literature, I believe) NOT feed any honey to the infant until 1 year old, due to the risk of BOTULISM.  Presumably they’re more sensitve when young (kids); However this does indicate that botulism IS present in honey.  I’ll try to nail down the source of this allegation.    CBT

Yes the bacteria is present in honey, but the resident bacteria in our colons kills them off. The danger to infants is that they are born "clean", with no good bacteria cultured within them yet. The virus can take over, unchallenged in such an environment. I’m not sure how long it takes the human body to culture the necessary defenses, but I know it is speeded by breastfeeding – the mother passes her defenses on to the child. Obbrewing: Does anyone know if Liefmans makes a peche lambic ?? And if anyone distributes it in the southern Wisconsin / northern Illinois area ?? I’ve found their kriek and framboise, and really enjoy them both. A lot more true to lambic style than Timmermans or Lindemans. Cheers, Mitch —          When you go in for a job interview, I think a good thing           to ask is if they ever press charges.  – Jack Handey

Response:

P.S. I did my first batch about two weeks ago. I decided to jump in – started out with an all grain brew. So far so good! Primed & bottled when the bubbles stopped. I can’t wait for that first bottle….

Not just "primed"…"kraeusened"!  To a lot of people, that’s a bigger step than even all-grain brewing…I don’t know why. I’m no genius

No argument here!  (Hey!  It’s a joke!  Put down that bat!  Ow!) and so far I’ve had no problems, so if anybody out there is waiting to take the all-grain plunge, just do it! (Thanks to Gak for helping me start out!)

My pleasure!  Just make sure I get a sample…or two…or six… (BTW, it’s "gak".  You’d think he’d get his boss’s name right.  Jeez.) — I guess there’s some things          |      Seems like the more I think I know I’m not meant to understand          |                 The more I find I don’t Ain’t life a riot? Ain’t love grand? | Every answer opens up so many questions

Response:

Just as another data point, I thought I would mention that we (as new parents) were told (by the hospital literature, I believe) NOT feed any honey to the infant until 1 year old, due to the risk of BOTULISM.  Presumably they’re more sensitve when young (kids); However this does indicate that botulism IS present in honey.  I’ll try to nail down the source of this allegation.    CBT

About a year ago there was an extensive thread on Honey in rec.foods.cooking . On that group, Those Who Know (including some phd chem types and food scientists) assert that there are many "forign things" in honey. Botulism will live through the pasturizing/canning  process for commercial honey. You can find even more wonderful things in uncooked organic honey. (In fact, it’s known that eating wild honey collected from the area you live in can help with allergies to airborn particulate matter, i.e. pollens). Why not feed baby honey? Mostly because Baby’s digestive tract hasn’t yet developed the myriad of beasties in the average human’s digestive tract, so Botulism would have an easy time populating Baby. Mom & Dad have had 20 or 30 years to culture all kinds of things which compete with Botulism, and so the risk here is neglegable. Yes, it’s a fact, and not the mere ravings of someone like me.        -Mike, newbie nano-brewer. P.S. I did my first batch about two weeks ago. I decided to jump in – started out with an all grain brew. So far so good! Primed & bottled when the bubbles stopped. I can’t wait for that first bottle…. I’m no genius, and so far I’ve had no problems, so if anybody out there is waiting to take the all-grain plunge, just do it! (Thanks to Gak for helping me start out!) —                           (####)                         (#######)

Response:

Just as another data point, I thought I would mention that we (as new parents) were told (by the hospital literature, I believe) NOT feed any honey to the infant until 1 year old, due to the risk of BOTULISM.  Presumably they’re more sensitve when young (kids); However this does indicate that botulism IS present in honey.  I’ll try to nail down the source of this allegation.         CBT

Response:

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